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Crankshaft design/strength question |
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Topic: Crankshaft design/strength questionPosted: 20 October 2009 at 6:34pm |
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Does anyone have any experience with a crankshaft like this?
This is a 500 Ninja motor, parallel twin, liquid cooled, four valve head....
The crankshaft is a 180 degree, forged , four main bearing setup, the thing that concerns me is the placement of the #4 main bearing, it is 40mm away from the counterweight, and has the primary drive gear, and counterbalancer gear between the counterweight, and the main bearing...
Here are a few crank details: Main bearing journal diameter: 36mm, Rod journal diameter: 38mm, Overlap from rod to main journal: 8mm
I'm somewhat concerned about having the main bearing outside of the primary chain drive gear, is this a potential weak point in the crank, or am I just thinking too much??
I plan to turbocharge this motor for my landspeed bike project, the NA guys are breaking cranks at the 70HPO level, but they are spinning the motor 13K to achieve that power level, and I believe that the rods are letting go first...
I plan to put good rods and pistons in it, and limit it to 10,000 rpm...
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 20 October 2009 at 6:35pm |
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 20 October 2009 at 9:05pm |
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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Guests
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 12:24am |
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It looks robust enough, with the large diameter carried through the gear. I suppose there's only one way to find out for sure! At least you know which main bearing to really watch. I might suggest you ensure that the oil feed system to that bearing is looking good...no pinch spots that might limit oil flow. That bearing's gonna need all the help you can give it!
As a last thought...I'd run the bearing clearance a tad larger on that one. That will get more oil flowing through it, as well as give it more "tolerance" for any deflection or eccentric rotation related to the adjacent rod throw. As it's an engine you will be into often enough, you can keep an eye on this bearing and adjust the clearance up/down as needed.
Don't lighten the crank, as those big flywheels are a plus in keeping the crank solidly centered under power. Try to maintain the same balance factor as it had stock, should you be swapping out pistons and rods. Edited by Bill Hahn Jr. - 22 October 2009 at 12:16pm |
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APE Jay
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Joined: 18 November 2003 Location: Willow Springs Online Status: Offline Posts: 1994 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 1:32am |
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Are the NA guys breaking in that rod journal, or behind the gear?
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 2:33am |
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Alright, thanks Bill! I was concerned about deflection or about that bearing being out of parallel with the shaft at the worst case scenario, more clearance sounds like a good plan... The good news is this motor seems to hold up to turbocharging, at the 110HP level anyhow, I received some info from a guy who tubocharged one of these motors and kept the RPM level below 10.5K, and it worked well in both street conditions and drag racing. I'm going to put together a turbo setup, and throw the motor on my spare chassis, and see what breaks on the dyno....
I really don't want to find out what breaks at 175 MPH.... ;)
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 2:37am |
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Jay, I'm not sure, so far it seems like everyone has lost a rod, which resulted in a broken crank...
So I'm discounting the weak crank theory somewhat right now, and guessing it's a rod issue, or too high of a RPM for either the rod or crank.
I'm trying to identify where the crank is failing, but I can't get much good information at this point.
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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Bob Brooks
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Joined: 18 January 2008 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 1:28pm |
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Do you still use the counterbalance shaft? If crank deflection proves to be an issue, then would it be feasible to machine the gear off to accept a roller bearing? Obviously you'd have to severely mod the cases to suit. Good luck with your project.
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Bob Brooks
Yellow Metal Racing Blown Alky Puma |
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 3:29pm |
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Bob, it's funny that you mention that, I was thinking about doing something along those lines, I have a machinist that could do the work....
Being as I have a set of good rods and pistons for this motor, and a new crank, transmission, and other parts, I guess I would do whatever it takes to strengthen things, instead of scrapping the whole idea with this engine, and going to some other engine design.
The balancer shaft also drives the water pump, but I can work around that problem too, the water inlet to the cylinders is an external passage with a pipe going into it, I could plumb another pump into it....
I wasn't sure if I was crazy for contemplating some major reengineering of this motor, but since parts of the design are very good, I'll just have to patch those parts that are not! ;)
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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Bob Brooks
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Joined: 18 January 2008 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 246 |
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Posted: 21 October 2009 at 4:20pm |
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wasn't sure if I was crazy for contemplating some major reengineering of this motor, but since parts of the design are very good, I'll just have to patch those parts that are not! ;)
Being crazy is normal................................ Edited by Bob Brooks - 21 October 2009 at 4:21pm |
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Bob Brooks
Yellow Metal Racing Blown Alky Puma |
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APE Jay
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Joined: 18 November 2003 Location: Willow Springs Online Status: Offline Posts: 1994 |
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Posted: 22 October 2009 at 2:29am |
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If you need a spare crank, call me 661-256-7309
Jay |
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Manufacturer of the world's fastest motorcycle racing products.
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 27 October 2009 at 3:52am |
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Jay, do you sell main bearing studs and cylinder studs for an EX500?
If not, is there a listing of stud lengths of existing products, so that I might be able to use something not specifically made for this application?
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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Guests
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Posted: 27 October 2009 at 4:10am |
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Hey RZ...check out this twin TZ bike! That's like FOUR RZ's!
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RZ350
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Posted: 27 October 2009 at 5:29am |
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Yikes!! How quick/fast is it?? I would guess 250-300 HP total?
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239 HP Turbo ZRX1100
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nealmeal2000
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Joined: 23 August 2009 Location: lisbon,me,usa Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Posted: 06 November 2009 at 9:04am |
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i dont see a front brake rotor wonder how they stopped it -i had an rd with tz350 top end that went 11.0 at 121 25yrs ago
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billet
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APE Jay
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Joined: 18 November 2003 Location: Willow Springs Online Status: Offline Posts: 1994 |
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Posted: 06 November 2009 at 12:16pm |
I used to make them for the Ninja 1000, and a lot of the EX500 stuff is half of that motor. I will see what the lengths of those were. |
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funny1
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Joined: 19 November 2003 Location: Herrin,Illinois Online Status: Offline Posts: 1327 |
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Posted: 06 November 2009 at 2:40pm |
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that reminds me of the KLT 250 3 wheeler----1 cylinder of a kz 1000
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Quit asking me questions that make me remember how long ago that was!
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nealmeal2000
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Joined: 23 August 2009 Location: lisbon,me,usa Online Status: Offline Posts: 25 |
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Posted: 06 November 2009 at 5:28pm |
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i know what use a half of a z1 engine parts are cheap and the tranny would be super strog and the weight not such a prob with land speed being the outcome-wonder if you could get a norton crank to fit a 500 ninja-just think of the crank and having an end support most cranks with the drive outboard of the end are unsupported its why we use outboard bearing supports for the same reason-think some people build the 500 to 750 the gs500 twin truely looks older but more rugged i think you could build a very big engine out of one of them the old 4 valve yamaha 500 twin is quite interesting also not sure how big a 450 honda could be-but its a big rugged lump-sherwood
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billet
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