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Crankshaft design/strength question

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RZ350 View Drop Down
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Crankshaft design/strength question
    Posted: 20 October 2009 at 6:34pm
Does anyone have any experience with a crankshaft like this?
 
This is a 500 Ninja motor, parallel twin, liquid cooled, four valve head....
 
The crankshaft is a 180 degree, forged , four main bearing setup, the thing that concerns me is the placement of the #4 main bearing, it is 40mm away from the counterweight, and has the primary drive gear, and counterbalancer gear between the counterweight, and the main bearing...
 
Here are a few crank details: Main bearing  journal diameter: 36mm, Rod journal diameter: 38mm, Overlap from rod to main journal: 8mm
 
I'm somewhat concerned about having the main bearing outside of the primary chain drive gear, is this a potential weak point in the crank, or am I just thinking too much??
 
I plan to turbocharge this motor for my landspeed  bike project, the NA guys are breaking cranks at the 70HPO level, but they are spinning the motor 13K to achieve that power level, and I believe that the rods are letting go first...
 
I plan to put good rods and pistons in it, and limit it to 10,000 rpm...
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 6:35pm
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2009 at 9:05pm
More pics...
 
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  Quote Bill Hahn Jr. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 12:24am
It looks robust enough, with the large diameter carried through the gear.  I suppose there's only one way to find out for sure!  At least you know which main bearing to really watch.  I might suggest you ensure that the oil feed system to that bearing is looking good...no pinch spots that might limit oil flow.  That bearing's gonna need all the help you can give it!
 
As a last thought...I'd run the bearing clearance a tad larger on that one.  That will get more oil flowing through it, as well as give it more "tolerance" for any deflection or eccentric rotation related to the adjacent rod throw.  As it's an engine you will be into often enough, you can keep an eye on this bearing and adjust the clearance up/down as needed.
 
Don't lighten the crank, as those big flywheels are a plus in keeping the crank solidly centered under power.  Try to maintain the same balance factor as it had stock, should you be swapping out pistons and rods.


Edited by Bill Hahn Jr. - 22 October 2009 at 12:16pm
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  Quote APE Jay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 1:32am
Are the NA guys breaking in that rod journal, or behind the gear?
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 2:33am

Alright, thanks Bill!

I was concerned about deflection or about that bearing being out of parallel with the shaft at the worst case scenario, more clearance sounds like a good plan...

The good news is this motor seems to hold up to turbocharging, at the 110HP level anyhow, I received some info from a guy who tubocharged one of these motors and kept the RPM level below 10.5K, and it worked well in both street conditions and drag racing.

 
I'm going to put together a turbo setup, and throw the motor on my spare chassis, and see what breaks on the dyno....
 
I really don't want to find out what breaks at 175 MPH.... ;)

 

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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 2:37am
Jay, I'm not sure, so far it seems like everyone has lost a rod, which resulted in a broken crank...
 
So I'm discounting the weak crank theory somewhat right now, and guessing it's a rod issue, or too high of a RPM for either the rod or crank.
 
I'm trying to identify where the crank is failing, but I can't get much good information at this point.
 
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  Quote Bob Brooks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 1:28pm
Do you still use the counterbalance shaft? If crank deflection proves to be an issue, then would it be feasible to machine the gear off  to accept a roller bearing?  Obviously you'd have to severely mod the cases to suit.  Good luck with your project.
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 3:29pm
Bob, it's funny that you mention that, I was thinking about doing something along those lines, I have a machinist that could do the work....
 
Being as I have a set of good rods and pistons for this motor, and a new crank, transmission, and other parts, I guess I would do whatever it takes to strengthen things, instead of scrapping the whole idea with this engine, and going to some other engine design.
 
The balancer shaft also drives the water pump, but I can work around that problem too, the water inlet to the cylinders is an external passage with a pipe going into it, I could plumb another pump into it....
 
I wasn't sure if I was crazy for contemplating some major reengineering of this motor, but since parts of the design are very good, I'll just have to patch those parts that are not! ;)
 
 
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  Quote Bob Brooks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2009 at 4:20pm
 wasn't sure if I was crazy for contemplating some major reengineering of this motor, but since parts of the design are very good, I'll just have to patch those parts that are not! ;)
 
 Being crazy is normal................................Big smile


Edited by Bob Brooks - 21 October 2009 at 4:21pm
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  Quote APE Jay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2009 at 2:29am
If you need a spare crank, call me 661-256-7309

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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2009 at 3:52am
Jay, do you sell main bearing studs and cylinder studs for an EX500?
 
If not, is there a listing of stud lengths of existing products, so that I might be able to use something not specifically made for this application?
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  Quote Bill Hahn Jr. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2009 at 4:10am
Hey RZ...check out this twin TZ bike!  That's like FOUR RZ's! 
 
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  Quote RZ350 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2009 at 5:29am

Yikes!!

How quick/fast is it??

I would guess 250-300 HP total?

 

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  Quote nealmeal2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 9:04am
i dont see a front brake rotor wonder how they stopped it -i had an rd with tz350 top end that went 11.0 at 121 25yrs ago
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  Quote APE Jay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by RZ350

Jay, do you sell main bearing studs and cylinder studs for an EX500?
 

If not, is there a listing of stud lengths of existing products, so that I might be able to use something not specifically made for this application?


I used to make them for the Ninja 1000, and a lot of the EX500 stuff is half of that motor. I will see what the lengths of those were.
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  Quote funny1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 2:40pm
that reminds me of the KLT 250 3 wheeler----1 cylinder of a kz 1000
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  Quote nealmeal2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 November 2009 at 5:28pm
i know what use a half of a z1 engine parts are cheap and the tranny would be super strog and the weight not such a prob with land speed being the outcome-wonder if you could get a norton crank to fit a 500 ninja-just think of the crank and having an end support  most cranks with the drive outboard of the end are unsupported its why we use outboard bearing supports for the same reason-think some people build the 500 to 750 the gs500 twin truely looks older but more rugged i think you could build a very big engine out of one of them the old 4 valve yamaha 500 twin is quite interesting also not sure how big a 450 honda could be-but its a big rugged lump-sherwood
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